15 July 2008

Post 146

When was the last time I opened up a can of worms?

Correct answer: too long ago.

So today's topic is art. I know few topics that is so innately volatile: I mean, just trying to nail down a solid definition of art can cause offense to some people. One of the problems we run into immediately is the difference between Art Perceived and Art Intended. I submit that Art Perceived is a null phrase. Art, to me, has a lot to do with creative process. If I discard a creation of mine as worthless, and some other guy finds it and thinks it's fantastic and beautiful and (dare I say it?) artistic, I don't think that makes it art. I'm not sure we have (in English, at least) a good name for that, but I think calling it "art" would be erroneous.

I got in a pretty exciting debate with a girl about this a few weeks back. She's a music major and a big fan of such things as John Cage's 4'33", which is hard for me to have a solid opinion on. I ran this girl in circles until, in a huff, she told me that anything a person wants to accept as art is art, which struck me more as a surrender than a definition--but whatever.

My problem with something like 4'33" is that I think an artist ought to manipulate in some way what it is the audience experiences. Perhaps John Cage intended his audience to simply appreciate the ambient sounds of their current environment; whether that be the buzzing of lights or the breeze through the bushes, certainly the audience could find something to listen to. This seems to me less of an artistic accomplishment and more of an exercise in meditative stillness--which I'm all for but cannot consider any sort of music. The argument is, of course, that silence plays a significant role in most any piece of music, so why not have it the dominant (or, in this case, sole) factor? I say because music is the organization (or, if we wanna be really liberal, the manipulation) of sounds to some end. A musician telling his audience to appreciate whatever ambient noises may be present is essentially the same as a photographer to tell his fans to look out their bedroom window--certainly not a bad idea but not really any semblance of art.

I am not opposed to the concept that anything can be art, though. Perhaps if I constructed or encouraged the instruction of a room in which absolute silence existed and then had people come in to experience the audible void, then we would be approaching art, I think, but more architectural than musical, though perhaps some amalgamation of the two.

Well, I feel I've rambled enough. Here is the definition of art I have created--the most satisfactory one I can think of--for you to support or refute; I thought it up myself so feel free to support it heartily or oppose it brutally--the latter being so much more the fun:

Art is the careful and honest expression of a sentiment.

41 comments:

  1. .

    I have two very different definitions I like.

    The first is distinctly Mormon (and, sorry, can't remember its provenance): Art is something about which perfect beings can disagree.

    Think about it.

    The second is the definition Scott McCloud came up with in Understanding Comics, basically, whatever is not designed to promote eating, shelter or sex is art. Of course, there are fuzzy lines in that definition.

    Read UC? If not, you should. Excellent book on many levels.

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  2. Well I see a few problems with your definition. First, it does not differentiate properly. For a good definition you need genus (broad category) and differentia (a distinguishing property that excludes the entity from other members of the category). Basically, a definition needs to both include and exclude the right things. In your definition you present a very broad picture of art that does not exclude enough and includes things that should be excluded-- making it a poor definition. I recognize your definition is a personal one-- but definitions are of little value if they are strictly personal. By your definition if I honestly told a girl about a carefully thought out sentiment i.e. that I love her, that is art. This cannot be art because art (from the very root of the word in greek) means skill. Any fool can say I love you. Such a sentiment may be beautiful, and often beauty and art are found in the same object, but beauty is not a sufficient property to make art; after all, there are many ugly things that are appreciated as art.


    And next, on the flip side, your definition excludes things that are art. Some works of art aren't meant to be honest, and some works of art weren't made carefully. Now I recognize you might have particular definitions you associate with each word, but the common definitions of both exclude many things that are considered art. Coleridge's greatest poem was written (according to him) when he was semiconcious and doped up on laudanum, and as for honesty, there are thousands of artists who make it a practice to dupe the public with hidden messages and themes.

    When you get down to it there are just so many examples of accepted pieces of art that are neither honest or carefully made, and because of this, such qualities should not be included in a definition for art.

    Now the likely response to what I'm saying is that your definition of art refers to "true" art as opposed to false art. But truth when speaking of subjective things (which your definition requires due to the subjectivity of its constituent terms) must of necessity be subjective. Truth used in this context amounts to saying "I approve of this" and has no real meaning beyond a statement of personal preference.

    So what I guess I'm saying is that your definition of art does not fulfill the role of a proper definition because it includes things that are not art and it excludes things that are. But I appreciate your honest carefully thought out attempt at expressing your sentiment of what art is. On the bright side, by your definition, your definition is art.

    Well I better get to bed. It's almost 4 in the morning. I'll read this when I'm fully conscious tomorrow to see if I made any sense.

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  3. Thmazing - I think there is something important in what you said, but I just woke up and cannot put my finger on it. In regards to the second one, I seem to remember reading an essay once that talked about how art is necessarily useless, which was amusing to me but not entirely fair. I mean, you could argue that a Frank Lloyd Wright building is art (something I am neither supporting or refuting), but that doesn't mean it won't protect you from a storm. I like your first one, though--something about which perfect beings can disagree. This is the thing that seems important that I can't distill. I hate to use the word 'subjectivity,' but it's all that comes to mind. I suppose all art is open to interpretation--is this an essential part of art, though? This is something I must ponder on....

    Anonymous!?!? Good to have you back, sir: it's been a while. I thought this one might attract you. A few points:

    1) I appreciate your counterexample of expressing love to someone; I think this is a very important point. I agree with you that there must be some sort of craft in art, but I don't really know how or where to draw the line on this or really what sort of line it ought to be. It seems to me that, were said expression of love written down, suddenly it is a monologue or poem and therefore (arguably) art. Yet we cannot suppose that it is the physicality of writing on paper that makes this art because I might accept a song as art regardless of whether it was written down or merely floating around in the composers head. But I do agree with you in some degree that, if normal conversation, no matter how honest and careful, be included as art, then it gets very difficult to eliminate other things. That said, I'm not sure it's true that "any fool can say I love you." I mean, sure, the words are easy, but to communicate such a weighty thing and not be misunderstood--seems we're at least bordering on art here....

    I'm losing my own thread--on to the next point!

    2) As regards "Some works of art aren't meant to be honest, and some works of art weren't made carefully": can I just say that I hate my own choice of words? 'Honest' and 'Careful' are the best I can come up with, but they do (to your credit) require some definition. I'll tackled 'careful' first because it is the easier of the two: by 'careful' I suppose I mean something more along the lines of 'deliberate,' but I like that word no better. As I typed my definition, I knew someone would point out someone like Jackson Pollock, who was methodical but nothing like careful (in a normal sense, at least). Now I feel like I'm quibbling, and I probably am. I think art can be reckless, but it always works toward an end. The end product may be surprising to the artist, and a finished work of art may, I suppose, mean different things to the artist at different times, but the original intent will always be lurking in it somewhere--even if the artist forgets what that intent was. 'Honest' is an even harder one to nail down. Perhaps I'm just hopelessly naive, but I'm not convinced that anyone can ever completely escape their ideas about what is real, and no artist ever made artwork that didn't have some small reflection of those ideas in it. The problem with this thought is that, if you can't escape your notions of truth, and if notions of truth comprise 'honesty,' then isn't everything you do/create going to have an element of art in it? No, and that's not what I'm trying to say. In my mind (though this certainly didn't come up in my definition), the 'careful' and 'honest' elements are fundamentally intertwined. Somehow. See, the artist has this conception regarding The Way Things Are (an honest conception that he really believes), and then he carefully creates a work of art to express that conception in one way or another. If he carefully chooses irony to be a major part of that, then he may carefully seek to craft a lie, but he crafts the lie to tell a truth.

    Does this make sense to anyone, or do I merely sound like I'm saying pretty words to spark discussion? I really am trying to put forth my definition of art, here; I'm sorry if I'm doing a lousy job of it....

    3) I hate to say that the line between 'true art' and 'false art' is the line of "I approve of this," but perhaps this notion that art is something perfect beings can disagree about extends to the very definition of art, but I hope not. I'm not quite pretentious enough to label things 'true art' or 'false art': I'm just trying to come up with a definition.

    4) I don't suppose that, when you come back in a more awake state, you'd care to offer your own definition, would you?

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  4. Egads... reading all these comments is making my head spin rather than causing me to wax philosophical. I'm just going to try spouting out my own definition just for the sake of participation.

    Art is a manipulation intended to enhance, diminish, or change the experience of senses, emotions, or ideas.

    I also toyed with "draw attention to or away from senses, emotions, or ideas".

    What think ye?

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  5. I think my art teacher would say 4'33" makes an artistic statement. What is silence? Is it really silent when you can hear people breath? Is the breathing the song or does it interrupt the song? At least, I can picture him saying that... >.O That is the part about art/creativity that I don't like... People always want to dissect things like this... I'd rather enjoy it.
    Like someone commented before (was it here?? I think so... I think it was Th that mentioned it) about scifi stuff. There's always some sort of political agenda in it. Ok, cool. I don't mind thinking when I don't have to. When someone is making me, I don't... >.< But I digress. Whatever political statement it's making, there's always the enjoyment factor! Yes, they are making a statement about free rights or something, but at the end of the day something got blown up, a red shirt got abused and Capt. Kirk got the girl!!
    You can dissect the politics till the end of time, but you still enjoy it. I think in art (and this is just Fei-chan talking... Well, typing, but you get the idea) too many people spend all their time trying to dissect the creative object. Is it art? What was the artist thinking? What does the piece say to me...
    Yes. Go ask him/her/it. Um... that it's hot in here?
    >.<
    Art is for enjoyment!!!!11one

    *breath* ... >.>
    <.<
    Yeah... You hit an old rant of mine. ^.^; Sorry...
    And it's not that I'm exactly against dissecting. It has its place. I just think people forget to simply enjoy the art. Too busy going somewhere to enjoy the scenery...
    Which, in retrospect, might be the whole point to 4'33"... *shrug*

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  6. I'm mulling around your thoughts, Schlange. I'm thinking that my definition could be greatly improved by mentioning that art generally targets a specific sense. I think that this would (possibly) eliminate Anonymous's Expression of Love example, but it also reminds us of things like the Culinary Arts (which I know you're fond of).

    F-C, I'm not sure what to think. IS enjoyment a necessary part of art? I think it very well may be. I'm trying to think of a counterexample, but I've got nothing. Even art that, like Anonymous mentioned, is meant to be ugly--would anyone appreciate it if there wasn't some sick drive within us to seek what repulses us? I'm not sure I'm willing to accept this as an innate element of what art is, but it's certainly something to consider.

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  7. I'd just like to throw in my comment to say that I've yet to reach any conclusions about a definition of art. And that also, I've yet to find a written definition of art that isn't far too vague for my tastes. (And my tastes in matters of any type of aesthetics prefer that people be very specific.)

    And even though Th.'s idea of art being something about which perfect beings can disagree about is intriguing, it still is yet too broad for me.

    Interestingly enough, one of the readings from my critical theory class was a person who posited that art isn't art unless it's communicating something that the artist didn't intend. Thus, art implies an act of transformation.

    Again, an intriguing idea. But I've yet to read any such theories that can carry premises like that through to logical conclusions and provide examples, which frustrates me to no end.

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  8. .

    I like this notion of art being something other than the intent of the artist, and thus an act of transformation. This would cut out a lot of things snobs dismiss without turning into snobs ourselves.

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  9. New thought: is there any distinction between Art and An Art? For example, one might rightfully speak of, say, the Art of Conversation, and I would be willing to admit that good conversation is an art, but I wouldn't call conversation Art.

    Am I quibbling now? I propose that all of the broad, vague ideas we've been tossing around could qualify something as an art and that the specific definition Confuzzled is searching for would regard Art.

    I was thinking about that. I was thinking, "What the crap, Confuzzled: you really expect to find a 'very specific' definition of something so vague as art? Impossible! Art itself is too broad and vague to be nailed down in any very definite terms. I was merely hoping to narrow it down a bit." But then I realized that it could just be that the word 'art' (as opposed to Art itself) is vague.

    Anybody? Am I on to something here?

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  10. I would say that there is, indeed, a distinction between "art" and "an art." (I tend not to assign things capital letters unless I think there's something about them that is unqualifyingly universal. Thus I believe that Truth and truth are two different things, but that's something else entirely . . .)

    To me, "art" is a concept . . . whereas "an art" is a specific craft, e.g. conversation, writing, painting, what have you.

    Thus my struggle, I suppose, to get a definition of art. (Though another quotable definition comes from Picasso (paraphrasing here): "Art is a lie that helps us realize the truth.")

    While I realize that art, as a concept, is broad . . . does that mean the definition still has to be vague? I mean, physics as a concept is pretty broad, but I'm pretty sure I can find ways of describing it that are less vague than the ways of describing art . . .

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  11. P.S. A note for Th.

    Funny you should mention UC. It's one of the required texts for my Composition Theory class this fall.

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  12. Can you, Confuzzled? Succinct definition of physics? Lay it on me. (I try to call people on statements like this whenever I can.)

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  13. I didn't say it would be succinct, good Schmet. I said I could find a way of specifically defining the concept of physics. It would be a very long specific definition, the likes of which would probably be the death of your comments section. But if you really, really want one, I'll write one some time later. Or if I have time I'll blog one. Maybe. Maybe not. It might blow the minds of some of my readers to have another wise humanities-oriented girl writing up something specific about physics.

    Anyway, I could give you some concretes about physics: interactions between particles, matter, energy, yada yada yada . . .

    Then again, I suppose that is why we call physics a science and not an art. But isn't there an overlap between science and art?

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  14. ^.^ Glad to help. Yeah, those are just my thoughts on it. Take 'um, leave 'um, look at 'um funny. Your choice.

    As far as conversation/words being art?... Hm... I think yes, in a way. It's not art in the traditional scence, but it is a thing of beauty.

    And I have no idea what to say with the physics. So I'll just sit and watch.

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  15. What use is a definition if it isn't succinct? Is there then no difference between a definition and a demonstration?

    I had a new thought regarding "art" vs. "an art" that I think will put a new spin (and ultimately destroy) my initial definition, so tell me what you think of this notion:

    Art cannot be taught.

    An implication of this is (eg) "While the performance of a piano concerto is an art, it is the writing of said concerto that constitutes art"--the idea here being that anyone (theoretically) can be taught to play the piano, but nobody (in my mind) can be taught to compose music (though they may thoroughly be taught the ins and outs of musical theory and the workings of melody and harmony and dissonance and counterpoint and rhythm &c., composition has to come from some innate sumpinerother).

    The reason I feel that this may toll the death knell of my pretty little definition is that it seems to imply that "art" is in the sentiment itself--or at least in the manner that the sentiment is substantiated in the mind of the artist--and that the "honest and careful expression" of that sentiment is merely an art.

    What d'ya thinka that?

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  16. Just a fun little sidenote:

    I typed up all the definitions of "art" from four of my dictionaries (29 definitions in all) and then sorted them to see the most common words amongst them (certainly not the best way to figure out what the dictionaries are actually saying, but no two definitions were exactly alike, so I thought this might be fun). Here are all the words that appeared in the definitions and their respective number of occurrences (just because I'm a freak like that--and because I think it's funny when people takes words out of context to try to find meaning in them):

    or(17)
    art(8)
    as(8)
    skill(7)
    application(6)
    in(6)
    human(5)
    rules(5)
    etc(4)
    music(4)
    principles(4)
    system(4)
    activity(3)
    an(3)
    any(3)
    creative(3)
    cunning(3)
    painting(3)
    practical(3)
    some(3)
    such(3)
    also(2)
    arrangement(2)
    arrangements(2)
    artistic(2)
    arts(2)
    branches(2)
    craft(2)
    dexterity(2)
    drawing(2)
    esp(2)
    esthetic(2)
    forms(2)
    knowledge(2)
    liberal(2)
    nature(2)
    representation(2)
    sculpture(2)
    skilled(2)
    skillful(2)
    sounds(2)
    studied(2)
    that(2)
    these(2)
    trade(2)
    with(2)
    work(2)
    works(2)
    ability(1)
    accomplishment(1)
    actions(1)
    adaptation(1)
    applied(1)
    aptitude(1)
    arithmetic(1)
    attainment(1)
    beautiful(1)
    black(1)
    body(1)
    branch(1)
    character(1)
    chief(1)
    colors(1)
    concerned(1)
    conduct(1)
    construction(1)
    contrasted(1)
    cooking(1)
    craftsman(1)
    crafty(1)
    criticism(1)
    depends(1)
    designed(1)
    designs(1)
    determined(1)
    devices(1)
    devised(1)
    distinguished(1)
    e.g.(1)
    elements(1)
    embodiment(1)
    embodying(1)
    end(1)
    endeavor(1)
    especially(1)
    esthetically(1)
    exhibiting(1)
    facilitates(1)
    facility(1)
    from(1)
    give(1)
    guild(1)
    guile(1)
    ideas(1)
    illustration(1)
    imaginative(1)
    intellectual(1)
    its(1)
    journalism(1)
    knack(1)
    learning(1)
    literature(1)
    magic(1)
    mariner’s(1)
    mastery(1)
    meaningful(1)
    means(1)
    men(1)
    methods(1)
    museum(1)
    natural(1)
    navigation(1)
    occupation(1)
    one(1)
    opposed(1)
    order(1)
    organized(1)
    pictorial(1)
    pictures(1)
    pleasing(1)
    pleasure(1)
    power(1)
    practice(1)
    procuring(1)
    produced(1)
    production(1)
    productions(1)
    profession(1)
    public(1)
    pursuit(1)
    result(1)
    resulting(1)
    sciences(1)
    scientific(1)
    see(1)
    sensuous(1)
    shapes(1)
    speaking(1)
    speech(1)
    statues(1)
    systematic(1)
    their(1)
    this(1)
    thought(1)
    thus(1)
    traditional(1)
    trained(1)
    tricks(1)
    upon(1)
    various(1)
    visual(1)
    vocation(1)
    which(1)
    whose(1)
    wily(1)
    words(1)
    workmanship(1)
    writing(1)

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  17. Writing got only one mention between four dictionaries and 29 definitions? Bah.

    As for the not being taught thing--yep, that's a distinction I'd make between an art (that is, a craft) and art.

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  18. .

    Awesome list.

    I think the dominance of or at first place is an apt demonstration of the difficulties we're having.

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  19. Haha. That's probably--VERY true. I didn't think of that.

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  20. It also probably doesn't help that the word 'art' is tied for second place there.

    There is nothing I hate more than circular definitions. They're proof we could spend hours (metaphorically) chasing our tails . . .

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  21. Kay, Confuzzled--I've been mulling it over for however long now and it's still bugging me:

    Interestingly enough, one of the readings from my critical theory class was a person who posited that art isn't art unless it's communicating something that the artist didn't intend. Thus, art implies an act of transformation.

    This seems to me imply that art can only happen by accident, and I'm just not sure how I feel about that.

    It also requires art to be seen. I mean, if I paint a picture (ha! that'll be the day...), no matter what qualities it has, it won't be art until someone else sees it and gets something out of it that I didn't intend. It kinda hearkens back to the whole "If a tree falls in a forest..." question (rephrased for this discussion, "If Michelangelo sculpts a statue in a quarry, and no one ever discovers it, is it art?").

    I think I'm willing to admit that appreciation has a lot to do with art (or, at least, appreciation is what generally earns something the appellation of 'art'), but I really wish you'd clarify or rephrase your sentiment. More than what I've said above, this idea bothers me because it makes me an artist if I say something that somebody misunderstands. I mean, I say, "Mike threw away the rake in the yard" and intend that to mean, "Mike threw the rake away in the yard," but you understand it to mean, "Mike threw the rake in the yard away," am I an artist simply because you got something out of my utterance that I didn't intend?

    Just curious....

    Furthermore, this discussion has been entirely too civil; I just had to disagree with somebody!

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  22. Hm... art can not be taught... Heh, sounds like Ratatouille. "Anyone can cook." I think it's a similar concept. The movie said something like, "anyone can cook. This does not necessarily mean that anyone can be a great cook, but a great cook can come from anyone."
    The urge to create is something that can not be taught. It can be helped, it can be untaught I think, but not taught from scratch.

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  23. Point the first: I'd like to note that I said that I didn't entirely agree with that particular definition, even though I find the idea intriguing.

    Point the second: I find the intriguing and I like it, because it specifically excludes artists who are creating things to pound some political, intellectual, etc. point into the heads of the audience. While I think good art will tend to do that on its own, if that's the only reason for the creation of said art . . .

    Point the third: According to this man's definition (I really need to find out who it was. All I can remember was that it was a Marxist . . . Louis Althusser, maybe?), good art is something that the artist didn't intend because different people are able to interpret the artwork in different ways

    Point the fourth: I think it's entirely possible that art is only art if people see it. Otherwise, what on earth is the point? After all, people don't write novels for other people to not read them. Just sayin'.

    Point the fifth (and final): I find it strangely flattering that all of the people in this civil discussion, you chose to disagree with me.

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  24. Gadzukes! Leave the web alone for a few days and return to the longest string in its entire history...

    Schmett... you might ask "Anonymous" to refute that little bit that went "After all, people don't write novels for other people to not read them." I'm going to try to sum what he said, then he can reply that I got it all wrong:

    People used to write books for the sake of doing it - they were considered to be a piece of the soul and they were carefully guarded because you didn't want anybody to just peek in on your soul uninvited. - my only source thus far is Mr. Anonymous almost a year ago , so take that or leave it.

    I don't like the definition of art being left up to the random interpretation of others. I say that in addition to whatever else our definition of art ends up being it has to be created by an art. I'd go so far as to say that there have been works of art that existed for only moments as they were constructed, appreciated, and left in the past. I'd like to suppose that amongst these are certain sermons that I've given or listened to. There are certain truths that I have deep appreciation for and that I have done my very best to hold up into the light so that they could be seen clearly without misunderstanding for the purpose that their significance could be known and their effect that they could be understood with gratitude. I submit that those carefully arranged vantage points are indeed art and that they were crafted by an art.

    This is also the place that science and art collide. There are those things which are so solid in their existence that while they might be misinterpreted they shouldn’t be; that can arranged and viewed in such a way as to touch, lift or inspire. If those skillfully crafted moments are not art then I’m giving up on art and moving on to something far better.

    As long as I’m on my soap box maybe I’ll step up the definition of true art a notch so as to eliminate much that is considered art. I’m going to say that art is the moment in which something tangible or intangible changes something within you in a memorable way, and that following that moment art may be (but isn’t necessarily) revisited when the catalyst is reviewed.

    For the sake of harmonizing this definition and my last definition within this post I remind you that all that is truly art that isn’t crafted by the hand of man (and even that which is) keeps its origin with the master craftsman, the Father of our souls and Architect of the Universe. If that is true, than true art also draws men towards Him, while forgeries of it draw them away. Substitute “changes something within you for the better” for “changes something within you in a memorable way.”

    Boy… I’m really stomping on art as the world perceives it ar(n’)t I?

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  25. “There are certain truths that I have deep appreciation for and that I have done my very best to hold up into the light so that they could be seen clearly without misunderstanding for the purpose that their significance could be known and their effect that they could be understood with gratitude. I submit that those carefully arranged vantage points are indeed art and that they were crafted by an art.”
    I notice that part of that is not very clear… revision:
    There are certain truths that I have deep appreciation for and that I have done my very best to hold up into the light so that they could be seen clearly without misunderstanding for the purpose that their significance could be known and their effect understood with gratitude. I submit that those carefully arranged vantage points are indeed art and that they were crafted by an art.

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  26. So, Schlange, tell me if I'm understanding you correctly (I think I am, but I want to make sure). You are suggesting two things that have not yet been suggested here:

    1) Art is more of an experience than the object that causes the experience, though we may point to whatever caused said experience and rightfully say, "It is an art."

    2) Art must be good (in the sense that "good" is defined in Moroni 7--as well as various other scriptures).

    Did I get it?

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  27. Schlange, I'm hurt. You just attributed something I said to Mr. Anonymous. And I'm neither a Mr. nor Anonymous.

    Anyhow, I stand by what I say. These days, nobody is writing a novel for people not to read it. People don't create art for people not to see it.

    I will grant that often, the audience for said art is narrower than we as a general populace might define it . . . but nevertheless, everyone is creating their art for an audience.

    Even if the audience is the artist.

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  28. First, Yes, Schmett you got it right... except for that I would say that the thing that caused the experiences is a work of art rather than an art so as to distinguish between an object and the skillfull/crafty way in which it was created.

    Second, Confuzzled, I'm still attributing that information about the way writers used to feel about books to Mr. Anonymous, sense the fellow I heard it from was in my physical presence and was a roommate whom I suspect of being an occasional anonymous commenter on this blog. However, I appreciate you ratifying the fact that I didn't just invent the idea. I don't suppose you know a credible source for that information, do you? I'm interested to read about it.

    Third, I agree that nobody these days is writing a novel for themselves, but I don't doubt that much of that which was written by those who didn't share their words at that day and time are in fact works of art.

    Fourth I concede that the author/crafter of a work of art can count as the audience and that he may notice in his work something he wasn't thinking of when it was originally created - I still don't agree that this notion of understanding something unintended by the creator has anything to do with what a work of art is.

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  29. Don't you think, though, that sometimes a creator doesn't have a thought in his or her mind besides, "Ooh, pretty!"? Because I know that sometimes, when I'm writing poetry (not saying that I'm an artist by any means), I'm not trying to express anything in particular.

    In fact, sometimes I think art is a process of the artist figuring out what to say. And sometimes, sometimes I think that even the artist doesn't know by the time it's finished.

    But that doesn't mean that it can't mean something to someone else.

    Of course, trying to figure out what a painter meant by a painting is futile. Equally so an artist, a poet, or a novelist--because I firmly believe it can't be recognized as making any type of statement until it's in the public domain.

    And once it's in the public domain, then the various members of the public determine the statement it's making, which invalidates the original reason for creation anyway.

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  30. Balderdash! (regarding the bit about the public defines the art and invalidates the reason for the creation) While the art may cause many people to have different reactions (and by my own definition a different experience would mean the art was different), and while the public may decide "this is what it means" I don't believe that any public vote can change the art itself. I also believe that a skilled artist is able to manipulate a work of art in such a fashion that the art experienced by several people is very nearly the same. I'm going to step out on a religious limb and say that a person can pray for a work of art to have a desired effect, particularly if the art is intended to cause a virtuous experience, and that God can consecrate the work of art to evoke the intended experience of the art. Supposing that I am correct, such a work of art could not ever truly be changed. Such a work of art would become the exact experience designed by a person and enhanced by the grace of God - that is to say, the coauthors (God and Man) create the art and the public cannot change the art.

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  31. I agree with you to a point, Schlange. But I don't think that every piece of art is inspired. And I think even the ones that are may not be interpreted in the way the artist intended.

    I'd get all eloquent, but I'm far too tired.

    The whole problem with trying to define art is that we can only really define generalities. There are always exceptions.

    And now I lost my train of thought . . . I'll have to see if I can re-rail it tomorrow when I'm more coherent . . .

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  32. All right. I don't know if this will be any more eloquent, but here goes.

    I agree that, as with many other things, artist can be inspired to create something. They can, in a sense, co-author their work with God.

    But I don't think that it necessarily follows that everyone who views that art will feel that sense of divine inspiration. It's a matter of what people are looking for. Or conversely, what people are not looking for, when it comes to what they're watching/viewing/studying/enjoying.

    Another idea I haven't mentioned (here, yet . . . I've mentioned it before) is that art is dialogue with other artists. I like this idea of art as conversation. To me, it carries the implications of intent while still allowing for different interpretations (a la Schmet's earlier observation that he could communicate something and I would hear something different than what he may have intended)

    Also, here is something interesting: there is even a great divide among the artists when it comes to defining art. (Just look at almost any database of art-related quotes) Some artists define the finished product as art, but some artist think that's hogwash and that art is the process and the finished product just is.

    In addition, I think I need to clarify something that I said. When I refer to the idea of the public invalidating the reason for creation . . . what I mean is this: if an artist creates something to express a particular point to an audience, and no members of the audience walk away from the art having digested that particular reason, I don't think it invalidates the work of art itself. But I do think it invalidates the original reason for the art, since nobody is seeing that reason or finding that reason as important as the artist did.

    Does that make sense, or do I need to further clarify?

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  33. Much more eloquent: you said "a la"!

    As for clarity, though--I dunno. If art fails to do what the artist intended, it isn't necessarily disqualified as art, but--what? The phrase that is confusing me is "invalidates the original reason": what does that mean exactly? It's may be art, but it has no valid reason for existence, so it--it doesn't deserve to exist, but it does, and it's art, so we're okay with it existing because we like art, but there really is no--no, um....

    Yeah, I don't think I'm getting you. Sorry.

    As for you, Schlange--I think I have a beef with this line: "[...]a skilled artist is able to manipulate a work of art in such a fashion that the art experienced by several people is very nearly the same." Isn't it much more difficult to create something that will give every viewer an individual experience? I mean, I'm not much of a photographer, but even I and all my amateurism could pray, find a pretty flower, be filled with appreciation toward God, take a snapshot, and evoke from every viewer the exact same reaction: "Huh. Flower. Okay." Similarly, it would require very little ability to pray, read a few chapters from the conclusion of the Book of Mormon, and draw a picture that would evoke "Ew, gross!" from every viewer.

    [Which raises another question: do you have to be good at an art to create art? If I suck at drawing (true state of affairs), am I excluded from producing a sketch that would constitute art? I vote yes.]

    Anyway, Schlange m'boy, I just had to say I reject this notion that really good art produces the same effect in every viewer. I mean, you and I have had some wonderful discussions back and forth about various movies or books, sharing individual insights--often that are very different from one another--and have both been edified and rejoiced together because of it. Were we not discussing art?

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  34. What I mean by "invalidates the original reason": more or less, I mean that the original reason for creating the art is null void as an interpretation if nobody is getting it out of the art.

    Does that make more sense?

    Also, I'm glad you appreciated the "a la" ;)

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  35. *raises hand* Ooo! Oooo! I have something to add!
    On the- "do you have o be good at an art to create art?"
    Well, first of all good is such a broad word... I know I have the bad habit of using it much too much. >.< But anyway, I think you don't particularly have to be "good". I know that many great artists weren't thought of as "good" during their own times.
    But I do think you have to be skilled in your medium. You have to have an understanding of what you're doing, and what you want to do.

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  36. Pardon the long pause on my account. I just worked an evening 8 hour shift and a 16 hour shift the next day at my new job... needless to say, I haven't had any time for responding. As for a response, I'm too tired to say anything very good, but...

    Good points - just for the record I was moving along an extreemly narrow definition of art for the sake of to seep where it would lead me. I think that type of art exists somewhere but that there isn't much of it... I don't have any examples right now - it's there though.

    Oh, speaking of our book discussions I found a movie with an interesting title:

    Kill Your Darlings
    (A desperate young writer is lured on a wild ride through the desert by a mysterious woman in this darkly comic take on the all-American road trip. Along the way they cross paths with a hapless mobster, a 6 foot transvestite and a lovesick housewife, all on the way to their celebrity TV shrink in Las Vegas... Things quickly spiral out of control into a dangerous cat-and-mouse game... a writer's frantic search for inspiration becomes intertwined with a motley crew of quirky characters seeking love and adventure at any cost.)

    I'm not nessesarily pulled in by the description, but the title made me look carefully.

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  37. .

    Go here, then find the section that starts, "What--what is an artist?"

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  38. .

    It just occurred to me I could copy and paste:

    ----

    "What--what is an artist?"

    "An artist is one who has learned to see more than other people can in
    the common things about them."

    The definition was not quite clear to him. He had proved that he
    could see farther and clearer than she could when looking at trees or
    chipmunks. He looked critically again at the picture.

    "I mean, of course," she added, as she noted his puzzled look, "that an
    artist is one who sees in nature the beauty in form, in light and shade,
    and in color."

    "You haven't put that tree in the right place," he objected! "and you
    have left out that house altogether."

    "This is not a photograph," she answered. "I put in my picture only that
    which I want there. The tree isn't in the right place, so I moved it.
    The house has no business in the picture because I want it to represent
    a scene of wild, open lonesomeness. I want to make the people who look
    at it feel so lonesome that they want to cry!"

    She was an odd girl!

    "Oh, don't you understand. I want them only to feel like it. When you
    saw that charcoal drawing I made the other day, you laughed."

    "Well, it was funny."

    "That's just it. An artist wants to be able to make people feel like
    laughing or crying, for then he knows he has reached their soul."

    "I've got to look after the water for a few minutes, then I'll come back
    and help you carry your things," he said. "You're about through, aren't
    you?"

    "Thank you; I'll be ready now in a few minutes. Go see to your water.
    I'll wait for you. How beautiful the west is now!"

    They stood silently for a few moments side by side, looking at the glory
    of the setting sun through banks of clouds and then down behind the
    purple mountain. Then Dorian, with shovel on shoulder, hastened to his
    irrigating. The blossoming field of lucerne was usually a common enough
    sight, but now it was a stretch of sweet-scented waves of green and
    purple.

    ----

    from Dorian by Nephi Anderson

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  39. .

    I came up with a new one rather spontaneously today:

    Art is something into which you place a portion of your soul.

    Art succeeds when another person can find and feel that piece of soul it carries within it.

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  40. Ooooooo... Fei-chan likey. ^.^

    Lol. I love the part about how the gal moves the tree. ^.^ I've done stuff like that and I know of people who've moved things and deleted things. ^.^

    O.O Ooooooo.... Pretty quote... *copies down*... *mother copies down*... *aunt copies down*... ^.^

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